Dan Jones – In Dialogue With Mind-Body Therapy Master, Dr Ernest Rossi

Dan Jones – In Dialogue With Mind-Body Therapy Master, Dr Ernest Rossi

Introduction

Dan Jones, one of the UK’s leading experts in Hypnotherapy, Mind-Body Communication & Solution Focused Approach, and author of over ten books, including ‘Advanced Ericksonian Hypnotherapy Scripts’, ‘Hypnotherapy’, ‘Human Given's Approach to Supporting Parents of Challenging Teens’ and 'Guided Meditations for Health & Wellbeing' questioned Dr Ernest Rossi about mind-body therapy and his work.

Dr Ernest Rossi started out studying pharmacy back in the early 1950’s before following a psychology path in the late 1950’s which has spanned over 50 years. Dr Rossi is a Jungian Psychoanalyst, in the 1970’s he met with legendary Psychiatrist Dr Milton H Erickson with whom he wrote a series of books on Dr Erickson’s approach, and following Dr Erickson’s death in 1980 Dr Rossi co-wrote a number of books that were based on transcripts of lectures and workshops of Dr Erickson’s from the 1950’s and 1960’s, as well as completing the book ‘The February Man’ which is a transcript of a series of therapy sessions Dr Erickson had with a patient that includes the conversation and analysis by Drs Erickson and Rossi. Dr Rossi also worked on ‘The Collected Works of Milton H Erickson, which includes many of the papers Dr Erickson wrote over his career. Dr Rossi included with these papers in the ‘Collected Works’ updated neuroscience, putting Dr Erickson’s work in context with our latest understanding of how the mind works.

In 1972 Dr Rossi wrote ‘Dreams and the Growth of Personality’ (since re-released and expanded) which began an interesting direction around how people can heal themselves and facilitate new levels of awareness through creative and novel experiences, and how, during dreaming, psychobiological changes take place, leading to new responses and experiences of the World around you.

In 1986 Dr Rossi continued to share this new direction of thinking and forwarding the fields of Psychotherapy, Hypnotherapy, Mind-Body Therapies and what it means to be human with his book ‘The Psychobiology of Mind-Body Healing’. This book posed many questions and insights, and suggested areas of research still needed to confirm various hypotheses about how mind-body communication and healing may work and be facilitated. This book bought together information from fields ranging from Psychoneuroimmunology, Neuroendocrinology, Molecular Genetics, Neurobiology, Information Theories and more.

Dr Rossi wrote many papers on topics raised within ‘The Psychobiology of Mind-Body Healing’ and continued to advance themes from this book through various future books, workshops, lectures and audio and video programmes and continued research. Many of these papers have appeared in future books including ‘The Breakout Heuristic’ and ‘Creating Consciousness’.

In the 1990’s Dr Rossi explored the topic of Ultradian Rhythms and the ‘Ultradian Healing Response’ more fully with his book ‘The Twenty-Minute Break’ in 1991, ‘Ultradian Rhythms in Life Processes’ in 1992, and ‘Ultradian Rhythms From Molecules to Mind’ in 2008. Ultradian Rhythms, and other Chronobiological and Psychobiological rhythms have an important role in helping us to understand ourselves, understanding the time Psychotherapy and change takes, understanding when we are operating at peak performance and when we are likely to not operate at peak performance, and when we are likely to ‘give in’ to cravings, and so much more.

Life is full of rhythms, from mind, to gene, to sleeping and waking, to growth of our body and new neuronal growth within our nervous system, to our breathing and the beating of our heart. In 2002 Dr Rossi’s book ‘The Psychobiology of Gene Expression’ beautifully weaved life’s rhythms with the latest understandings of the interplay between gene expression and human experience to further advance our understanding of Psychotherapy and the Holistic Healing Arts and explaining the communication pathways from environment, to mind, body and spirit. This was Dr Rossi’s new Psychosocial Genomics.

Over the last decade Dr Rossi and a team of researchers have used DNA Microarrays to demonstrate the interplay from creativity, novelty and environmental enrichment to stimulate changes at a genetic level, showing that creative and novel therapy can, not just alter how someone thinks about a problem, but can also create new neuronal growth and changes within the cells of our body, making the change psychobiological, rather than just psychological.  

Dr Rossi’s research continues to gather new and on-going evidence, and Dr Rossi continues to write and lecture. He is one of the most passionate and genuine people I am aware of, his passion, humility, and love of life resonates and permeates his books and lectures, as does his desire to carryout and demonstrate evidence for his work and research and share his knowledge with others.

Dan Jones & Dr Ernest Rossi – In Dialogue

Jones: Dr Rossi, ever since discovering your work in the mid 1990’s I have been fascinated with your work, your insights into how, many different scientific disciplines interlink. I remember you talking about asking experts in different fields of study about different aspects of the interplay between the environment, the brain, psychology and the body, down to the genes and how you discovered that each person could give an answer from their perspective but few would commit to agreeing there is a continuous link between the environment, the mind and body, down to a genetic level.

What I am really curious to hear about here is what the latest understandings are about how the mind-body and environment interact, and what your view is of the mind-body system. I understand many people focus solely on how thoughts can influence our body, but they often fail to include the fact that we aren’t isolated beings, we live within an environment, and interact with, and are influenced by the environment with live within.

Relating to this interplay between the environment and ourselves there is now growing talk about epigenetics, unfortunately most of the focus on epigenetics seems to be relating to new drugs that will ‘turn genes on or off’ to treat a wide variety of conditions. My understanding is that epigenetic changes can be created psychologically and behaviourally rather than needing drugs?

Rossi: Of course, that’s what I have been working on for the past 50 years.  Epigenetics refers to the interactions between environmental factors and gene expression.  However, the field of epigenetics is dominated at this time by the biological and medical perspectives. Because of this you will not find much, if any, information about the influence of psychological and behavioral factors on gene expression in the current literature of epigenetics.  This is why I defined and initiated the new scientific discipline of psychosocial genomics about 10 years ago.  Psychosocial genomics deals specifically with how psychological, behavioral, social and cultural factors modulate gene expression in sickness and health.

Jones: I recall reading ‘The Psychobiology of Gene Expression’ and remember finding the ideas compelling and fascinating. In that book is a story about a twins that were born in a hospital, one of those twins was very ill and needed to be kept in an incubator. That twin’s health was deteriorating and was unlikely to survive so a nurse decided that, despite protocol saying it wasn’t allowed, she would put the healthy twin in the incubator with the other twin, reasoning that if their sibling was to die they should at least have spent some time together. Once the healthy twin was placed in the incubator it instinctively put its arm around its sibling, and the siblings vital signs increased, and eventually the unhealthy twin was healthy enough to leave hospital. I also remember hearing about Albert Mason in the UK in the 1950’s accidentally healing a young man of a genetic disorder with hypnosis that he thought was just warts, until after he had healed the person, and was told it was genetic and incurable. These stories, and many others, fascinated me, I wanted to know what was going on and why, and how this can be replicated. Over the years, especially through your work and lectures I have gained greater understanding about epigenetics and ways in which it can be possible to encourage changes on a genetic level for self-healing.

Something that changed my whole World view though, was the discovery that some epigenetic changes that occur within us can be passed onto future generations, so what we choose to eat, whether we smoke or drink, whether we suffer prolonged stress, or regularly exercise, can all lead to epigenetic changes that under certain conditions can be passed on to our offspring, and, at least with some changes, can be passed on through a number of future generations. To me, this was a shocking revelation, the idea that if I ate unhealthy food I could pass on the propensity for my child to have health problems, or if I smoked or drank I could again pass on an increased risk of related illnesses and diseases to my children. I read about the research relating to children born following the World Trade Centre attacks in 2001 and how mothers that were highly traumatised (stressed) by the attacks who were in the last trimester before birth had children born with a lower tolerance to stress, so they were born able to get stressed easily.

To me this is logical, if the parent is chronically stressed just before birth then this would imply the World must be a dangerous place (which it may not be in our modern World, but a chronically stressed person in a stone-age World probably had many threats present), if the World is dangerous then the child needs to be born hyper-vigilant to ensure their survival. Likewise if a parent doesn’t eat much food then finding food must be hard, so the child will be born with a greater ability to store fat, and so if the World turns out to actually have plenty of food the child is likely to easily gain weight.

With all this in mind isn’t it best that people take heed of this knowledge and choose to be more conscious over how they choose to lead their lives? And what kind of lifestyle is most conducive to maintaining health and wellbeing and securing the best health and wellbeing for future generations?

Rossi: In my 2002 book, “The Psychobiology of Gene Expression: Neuroscience and Neurogenesis in Hypnosis and the Healing Arts.”  …I outline how gene expression changes naturally every day to accommodate our daily activity in work and play.  Genes turn on and off during creative work, for example, to make the energy and encode new memory and learning.  This new memory and learning then becomes available for adapting creatively to whatever novel or changing circumstances are taking place in our lives.  At night when we are asleep and dreaming this creative process of gene expression attempts to update our neural networks to create new consciousness so we will be better able to understand and solve problems we could not cope with the day before.  This is the deep psychobiology behind the adage: “The morning is wiser than the evening.”

Jones: Thinking about dreaming and inner changes, many people like to learn self-hypnosis to overcome problems and difficulties in their lives, but then decide they don’t know how to use it, which leads them to give it up, or only use it for relaxation. I have read about your four-stage creative process and watched demonstrations of its use. Is this something people could use with themselves as a form of ‘self-hypnosis’ or do you have other ideas about how people can learn to do effective self-hypnosis?

Rossi: Yes, I have developed a new form of naturalistic therapeutic hypnosis or healing meditation that I call, “The Psychosocial Genomic Healing Experience.”  This is the new neuroscience foundation of all effective self-hypnosis, meditation, and spiritual rituals for mind-body healing that have evolved culturally over the centuries.  I believe this was one the original motivations for developing all the great world religions, for example. 

Jones: The ‘Psychosocial Genomic Healing Experience’ is a fascinating structure to the process we all go through that has similarities to the creative process Leonardo Da Vinci claimed to go through when working through discoveries or problems. Unlike traditional hypnosis or many meditation practices it allows for self-expression, and matches with how we work as humans, and is based on great insight into how we go through a stage of uncertainty, discovery, higher energy, through to clarity, relaxation and ‘a-ha’ moments. It is a process that is intuitive and ‘makes sense’ to people as being familiar to their own personal, current experiences, rather than something entirely new and ‘alien’. Yet despite this, the way the ‘Psychosocial Genomic Healing Experience’ is applied, includes ‘novelty’ and ‘creativity’ so even though it is familiar and understandable, it is also new and novel, which are some of the main aspects to triggering that inner change and healing.

Many years ago I first read your book 'The 20 Minute Break' where I learnt about Ultradian Rhythms. You also talk about 'tuning in'. What are Ultradian Rhythms, why do we have these regular rhythms, why should people learn to 'tune in' to their own Ultradian rhythms, what are the benefits (I've read it can help with things like weight loss, self-esteem, depression, anxiety, improved concentration, improved productivity, reduced pain, reduced psychosomatic symptoms, addiction, creativity, performance, memory, stress, etc.) and how should they use these rhythms and what are the negative consequences of over-riding the Ultradian rhythms? (Is there a negative consequence to over-riding the peak? I have seen writing and heard lectures talking about over-riding the rest-phase and the negatives of this but not the other way round?)

Rossi: Ultradian rhythms are shorter than our daily circadian rhythms.  One of the most important ultradian rhythms is the 90 to 120 minute basic activity-rest rhythm (BRAC) that modulates gene expression, biology, behavior, psychology and consciousness.  Stress and psychosomatic symptoms such as anxiety, pain and depression happen when we chronically try to override the normal peaks and limits of our daily activity.  We function normally and optimally by simply respecting and following our basic rest-activity rhythms.  We need to engage in creative work and play during the activity part of the BRAC and relax a bit (15 to 20 minutes) during the rest part of the BRAC.  It’s really all common sense!

Jones: I recall you talking about the moment you realized that Erickson seemed to have an instinctive understanding of the BRAC, that he used to often do 90-120 minute therapy sessions saying that during that time period people would drift into a natural every day trance state which he could utilize, rather than the old way of doing ‘hypnosis’ where, when the therapist is ready, they would tell the client ‘now is the time to go into a trance’, he would be able to wait, carry out the session, and when the time was right, they would enter trance themselves and he could just change and adapt to them. This idea of a therapist being led by the client, rather than the client being led by the therapist is a profound shift in thinking.

How have life events and different stages of your life and people you have met shaped and influenced what you have chosen to research and how have you used what you have learnt over the years to help yourself, how have you developed and evolved over time?

Rossi: I profoundly respect and tune into what my mind-body is trying to tell me throughout the day regarding where I am in my BRAC and I act accordingly.  Looking back l now realize all my best teachers who achieved advanced age, achievement, well-being and serenity followed their own natural rhythms of the psychobiology of gene expression even though they did not know anything about psychosocial genomics.  They all had a natural wisdom – they all may have given it different names: maturity, individuation, dedication or whatever.  My payback has been to trace out the scientific basis of their health, accomplishment and well-being so that others may emulate them.

Jones: If a client came to you for 'Hypnotherapy' how would it be different to if the client went to see an Authoritarian Hypnotherapist for example and what do you feel are the benefits of doing Hypnotherapy the way you do (would you even call it Hypnotherapy?) or the disadvantages of some other ways of doing Hypnotherapy? I remember you saying once that whenever you try to tell someone what to do they always end up doing the opposite, so it is easier not to tell them what to do.

Rossi: I prefer not to call what I do - anything other than facilitating “our naturally creative psychosocial genomic healing experiences throughout the day.”  To try to do anything otherwise in an authoritarian manner would be absurd!  It would assume that the so-called psychotherapist (councilor, guru, healer or whatever) can really know what’s going on in a person’s mind, brain and body with their trillions of connections on the neural and molecular level that are in a constant state of change and transformation.  Do you really think any human being can do that?  The presumption of being able to do such an impossible task leads to the stress of the psychotherapist and the lack of respect much of the general public has for those therapists who are so misguided.

Jones: It strikes me that the most respectful approach to take is an approach where the client is treated as the expert, even if they don’t realize they are the expert, and that the ‘therapist’ is just a guide or facilitator showing curiosity about how the client will do their own work.

Where do you see the future of psychotherapy going, do you see research similar to yours being absorbed into psychology courses and being taught to psychotherapists and do you see developments of techniques or understandings of how to use 'environmental techniques' to trigger relevant genetic expression to treat a wide range of conditions both psychological, psychosomatic and some physical?

Rossi: Of course!

Jones: Do you feel that this idea of ‘environmental techniques’ to facilitate change was what Erickson was doing with some of his task setting and 'experiential learning'? For example; making someone climb a mountain could trigger certain psychophysiological changes relevant to the problem. So it wasn't all a metaphor, or chore, or changing the pattern etc., could it sometimes have been holistic 'think this as you climb that'.

Rossi: Naturally!  Erickson called his approach “Naturalistic.”  I simply traced his naturalistic approach to its creative psychosocial genomic foundations.

Jones: If you were to recommend any one of your books to the average layperson to read which one would it be and why?

Rossi: I have already mentioned my 2002 book, “The Psychobiology of Gene Expression: Neuroscience and Neurogenesis in Hypnosis and the Healing Arts” and some of the best reasons for reading it.  I believe anyone – no matter what their level of education - can really appreciate the practical guidance for creative living presented in Chapter 6 on “How to Create a Great Day!”

Jones: I also think that the ‘Creating New Consciousness in Everyday Life’ Amazon Kindle eBook is an ideal introduction to your work that is an ‘easy to read’ book. One wonderful aspect of the eBook is your use of additional content, like videos and links to further information. There is also a shorter version of this eBook, that doesn’t have so much additional content that is great for those wanting their first introduction to your work available for free from your website www.ernestrossi.com, and also a range of papers you have made available for people to freely download and learn from.

Psychosocial Genomics, your books and lectures are fascinating, and I will continue to study and apply the knowledge I continue to learn for many years to come. Do you have any closing comments you would like to share?

Rossi: It has been said that any truly original book or life philosophy requires at least 10 years to find its audience. Well, Dan, I believe you have come along just in time to make my views available to a more general audience.  I sincerely thank you for the opportunity.

Jones: Thank you, for those wanting to learn more, I can highly recommend visiting www.ernestrossi.com and reading some of the free papers and the free eBook. For those that want to then take your learning to a new level I would recommend reading the ‘Creating New Consciousness in Everyday Life’ Amazon Kindle eBook, and as your knowledge increases, progress to the books ‘Creating Consciousness’, ‘The Breakout Heuristic’ and ‘The Psychobiology of Gene Expression’. There are also a number of audio and video lectures, workshops, demonstrations and short courses available from www.erickson-foundation.org.