Dan Jones – In Dialogue With Mind-Body Therapy Master, Dr Ernest Rossi
Introduction
Dan Jones, one of the UK’s
leading experts in Hypnotherapy, Mind-Body Communication & Solution Focused
Approach, and author of over ten books, including ‘Advanced Ericksonian
Hypnotherapy Scripts’, ‘Hypnotherapy’, ‘Human Given's Approach to Supporting Parents of Challenging Teens’ and 'Guided Meditations for Health & Wellbeing' questioned Dr Ernest Rossi about mind-body
therapy and his work.

Dr Ernest Rossi started out studying
pharmacy back in the early 1950’s before following a psychology path in the
late 1950’s which has spanned over 50 years. Dr Rossi is a Jungian
Psychoanalyst, in the 1970’s he met with legendary Psychiatrist Dr Milton H
Erickson with whom he wrote a series of books on Dr Erickson’s approach, and
following Dr Erickson’s death in 1980 Dr Rossi co-wrote a number of books that
were based on transcripts of lectures and workshops of Dr Erickson’s from the
1950’s and 1960’s, as well as completing the book ‘The February Man’ which is a
transcript of a series of therapy sessions Dr Erickson had with a patient that
includes the conversation and analysis by Drs Erickson and Rossi. Dr Rossi also
worked on ‘The Collected Works of Milton H Erickson, which includes many of the
papers Dr Erickson wrote over his career. Dr Rossi included with these papers
in the ‘Collected Works’ updated neuroscience, putting Dr Erickson’s work in
context with our latest understanding of how the mind works.
In 1972 Dr Rossi wrote ‘Dreams
and the Growth of Personality’ (since re-released and expanded) which began an
interesting direction around how people can heal themselves and facilitate new
levels of awareness through creative and novel experiences, and how, during
dreaming, psychobiological changes take place, leading to new responses and
experiences of the World around you.
In 1986 Dr Rossi continued to
share this new direction of thinking and forwarding the fields of
Psychotherapy, Hypnotherapy, Mind-Body Therapies and what it means to be human
with his book ‘The Psychobiology of Mind-Body Healing’. This book posed many
questions and insights, and suggested areas of research still needed to confirm
various hypotheses about how mind-body communication and healing may work and
be facilitated. This book bought together information from fields ranging from
Psychoneuroimmunology, Neuroendocrinology, Molecular Genetics, Neurobiology,
Information Theories and more.
Dr Rossi wrote many papers on
topics raised within ‘The Psychobiology of Mind-Body Healing’ and continued to
advance themes from this book through various future books, workshops, lectures
and audio and video programmes and continued research. Many of these papers
have appeared in future books including ‘The Breakout Heuristic’ and ‘Creating
Consciousness’.
In the 1990’s Dr Rossi explored
the topic of Ultradian Rhythms and the ‘Ultradian Healing Response’ more fully
with his book ‘The Twenty-Minute Break’ in 1991, ‘Ultradian Rhythms in Life
Processes’ in 1992, and ‘Ultradian Rhythms From Molecules to Mind’ in 2008.
Ultradian Rhythms, and other Chronobiological and Psychobiological rhythms have
an important role in helping us to understand ourselves, understanding the time
Psychotherapy and change takes, understanding when we are operating at peak
performance and when we are likely to not operate at peak performance, and when
we are likely to ‘give in’ to cravings, and so much more.
Life is full of rhythms, from
mind, to gene, to sleeping and waking, to growth of our body and new neuronal
growth within our nervous system, to our breathing and the beating of our
heart. In 2002 Dr Rossi’s book ‘The Psychobiology of Gene Expression’ beautifully
weaved life’s rhythms with the latest understandings of the interplay between
gene expression and human experience to further advance our understanding of Psychotherapy
and the Holistic Healing Arts and explaining the communication pathways from
environment, to mind, body and spirit. This was Dr Rossi’s new Psychosocial
Genomics.
Over the last decade Dr Rossi and
a team of researchers have used DNA Microarrays to demonstrate the interplay
from creativity, novelty and environmental enrichment to stimulate changes at a
genetic level, showing that creative and novel therapy can, not just alter how
someone thinks about a problem, but can also create new neuronal growth and
changes within the cells of our body, making the change psychobiological,
rather than just psychological.
Dr Rossi’s research continues to
gather new and on-going evidence, and Dr Rossi continues to write and lecture.
He is one of the most passionate and genuine people I am aware of, his passion,
humility, and love of life resonates and permeates his books and lectures, as
does his desire to carryout and demonstrate evidence for his work and research
and share his knowledge with others.
Dan Jones & Dr Ernest Rossi – In Dialogue
Jones: Dr Rossi, ever since
discovering your work in the mid 1990’s I have been fascinated with your work,
your insights into how, many different scientific disciplines interlink. I
remember you talking about asking experts in different fields of study about
different aspects of the interplay between the environment, the brain,
psychology and the body, down to the genes and how you discovered that each
person could give an answer from their perspective but few would commit to
agreeing there is a continuous link between the environment, the mind and body,
down to a genetic level.
What I am really curious to hear
about here is what the latest understandings are about how the mind-body and
environment interact, and what your view is of the mind-body system. I
understand many people focus solely on how thoughts can influence our body, but
they often fail to include the fact that we aren’t isolated beings, we live
within an environment, and interact with, and are influenced by the environment
with live within.
Relating to this interplay
between the environment and ourselves there is now growing talk about
epigenetics, unfortunately most of the focus on epigenetics seems to be
relating to new drugs that will ‘turn genes on or off’ to treat a wide variety
of conditions. My understanding is that epigenetic changes can be created
psychologically and behaviourally rather than needing drugs?
Rossi: Of course, that’s
what I have been working on for the past 50 years. Epigenetics refers to the interactions
between environmental factors and gene expression. However, the field of epigenetics is
dominated at this time by the biological and medical perspectives. Because of
this you will not find much, if any, information about the influence of
psychological and behavioral factors on gene expression in the current
literature of epigenetics. This is why I
defined and initiated the new scientific discipline of psychosocial genomics
about 10 years ago. Psychosocial
genomics deals specifically with how psychological, behavioral, social and
cultural factors modulate gene expression in sickness and health.
Jones: I recall reading ‘The
Psychobiology of Gene Expression’ and remember finding the ideas compelling and
fascinating. In that book is a story about a twins that were born in a
hospital, one of those twins was very ill and needed to be kept in an
incubator. That twin’s health was deteriorating and was unlikely to survive so
a nurse decided that, despite protocol saying it wasn’t allowed, she would put
the healthy twin in the incubator with the other twin, reasoning that if their
sibling was to die they should at least have spent some time together. Once the
healthy twin was placed in the incubator it instinctively put its arm around
its sibling, and the siblings vital signs increased, and eventually the
unhealthy twin was healthy enough to leave hospital. I also remember hearing
about Albert Mason in the UK in the 1950’s accidentally healing a young man of
a genetic disorder with hypnosis that he thought was just warts, until after he
had healed the person, and was told it was genetic and incurable. These
stories, and many others, fascinated me, I wanted to know what was going on and
why, and how this can be replicated. Over the years, especially through your
work and lectures I have gained greater understanding about epigenetics and
ways in which it can be possible to encourage changes on a genetic level for
self-healing.
Something that changed my whole
World view though, was the discovery that some epigenetic changes that occur
within us can be passed onto future generations, so what we choose to eat,
whether we smoke or drink, whether we suffer prolonged stress, or regularly
exercise, can all lead to epigenetic changes that under certain conditions can
be passed on to our offspring, and, at least with some changes, can be passed
on through a number of future generations. To me, this was a shocking
revelation, the idea that if I ate unhealthy food I could pass on the
propensity for my child to have health problems, or if I smoked or drank I
could again pass on an increased risk of related illnesses and diseases to my
children. I read about the research relating to children born following the
World Trade Centre attacks in 2001 and how mothers that were highly traumatised
(stressed) by the attacks who were in the last trimester before birth had
children born with a lower tolerance to stress, so they were born able to get
stressed easily.
To me this is logical, if the
parent is chronically stressed just before birth then this would imply the
World must be a dangerous place (which it may not be in our modern World, but a
chronically stressed person in a stone-age World probably had many threats
present), if the World is dangerous then the child needs to be born
hyper-vigilant to ensure their survival. Likewise if a parent doesn’t eat much
food then finding food must be hard, so the child will be born with a greater
ability to store fat, and so if the World turns out to actually have plenty of
food the child is likely to easily gain weight.
With all this in mind isn’t it
best that people take heed of this knowledge and choose to be more conscious
over how they choose to lead their lives? And what kind of lifestyle is most
conducive to maintaining health and wellbeing and securing the best health and
wellbeing for future generations?
Rossi: In my 2002
book, “The Psychobiology of Gene
Expression: Neuroscience and Neurogenesis in Hypnosis and the Healing Arts.” …I outline how gene expression changes
naturally every day to accommodate our daily activity in work and play. Genes turn on and off during creative work,
for example, to make the energy and encode new memory and learning. This new memory and learning then becomes
available for adapting creatively to whatever novel or changing circumstances
are taking place in our lives. At night
when we are asleep and dreaming this creative process of gene expression
attempts to update our neural networks to create new consciousness so we will
be better able to understand and solve problems we could not cope with the day
before. This is the deep psychobiology
behind the adage: “The morning is wiser than the evening.”
Jones: Thinking about dreaming
and inner changes, many people like to learn self-hypnosis to overcome problems
and difficulties in their lives, but then decide they don’t know how to use it,
which leads them to give it up, or only use it for relaxation. I have read
about your four-stage creative process and watched demonstrations of its use.
Is this something people could use with themselves as a form of ‘self-hypnosis’
or do you have other ideas about how people can learn to do effective
self-hypnosis?
Rossi: Yes, I have
developed a new form of naturalistic therapeutic hypnosis or healing meditation
that I call, “The Psychosocial Genomic Healing Experience.” This is the new neuroscience foundation of
all effective self-hypnosis, meditation, and spiritual rituals for mind-body
healing that have evolved culturally over the centuries. I believe this was one the original
motivations for developing all the great world religions, for example.
Jones: The ‘Psychosocial Genomic
Healing Experience’ is a fascinating structure to the process we all go through
that has similarities to the creative process Leonardo Da Vinci claimed to go
through when working through discoveries or problems. Unlike traditional
hypnosis or many meditation practices it allows for self-expression, and
matches with how we work as humans, and is based on great insight into how we
go through a stage of uncertainty, discovery, higher energy, through to
clarity, relaxation and ‘a-ha’ moments. It is a process that is intuitive and ‘makes
sense’ to people as being familiar to their own personal, current experiences,
rather than something entirely new and ‘alien’. Yet despite this, the way the ‘Psychosocial
Genomic Healing Experience’ is applied, includes ‘novelty’ and ‘creativity’ so
even though it is familiar and understandable, it is also new and novel, which
are some of the main aspects to triggering that inner change and healing.
Many years ago I first read your book 'The 20
Minute Break' where I learnt about Ultradian Rhythms. You also talk about
'tuning in'. What are Ultradian Rhythms, why do we have these regular rhythms,
why should people learn to 'tune in' to their own Ultradian rhythms, what are
the benefits (I've read it can help with things like weight loss, self-esteem,
depression, anxiety, improved concentration, improved productivity, reduced
pain, reduced psychosomatic symptoms, addiction, creativity, performance,
memory, stress, etc.) and how should they use these rhythms and what are the
negative consequences of over-riding the Ultradian rhythms? (Is there a
negative consequence to over-riding the peak? I have seen writing and heard
lectures talking about over-riding the rest-phase and the negatives of this but
not the other way round?)
Rossi: Ultradian
rhythms are shorter than our daily circadian rhythms. One of the most important ultradian rhythms
is the 90 to 120 minute basic activity-rest rhythm (BRAC) that modulates gene
expression, biology, behavior, psychology and consciousness. Stress and psychosomatic symptoms such as
anxiety, pain and depression happen when we chronically try to override the
normal peaks and limits of our daily activity.
We function normally and optimally by simply respecting and following
our basic rest-activity rhythms. We need
to engage in creative work and play during the activity part of the BRAC and
relax a bit (15 to 20 minutes) during the rest part of the BRAC. It’s really all common sense!
Jones: I recall you talking about the moment
you realized that Erickson seemed to have an instinctive understanding of the
BRAC, that he used to often do 90-120 minute therapy sessions saying that
during that time period people would drift into a natural every day trance
state which he could utilize, rather than the old way of doing ‘hypnosis’
where, when the therapist is ready, they would tell the client ‘now is the time
to go into a trance’, he would be able to wait, carry out the session, and when
the time was right, they would enter trance themselves and he could just change
and adapt to them. This idea of a therapist being led by the client, rather
than the client being led by the therapist is a profound shift in thinking.
How have life events and different stages of
your life and people you have met shaped and influenced what you have chosen to
research and how have you used what you have learnt over the years to help
yourself, how have you developed and evolved over time?
Rossi: I profoundly
respect and tune into what my mind-body is trying to tell me throughout the day
regarding where I am in my BRAC and I act accordingly. Looking back l now realize all my best
teachers who achieved advanced age, achievement, well-being and serenity
followed their own natural rhythms of the psychobiology of gene expression even
though they did not know anything about psychosocial genomics. They all had a natural wisdom – they all may
have given it different names: maturity, individuation, dedication or
whatever. My payback has been to trace
out the scientific basis of their health, accomplishment and well-being so that
others may emulate them.
Jones: If a client came to you for
'Hypnotherapy' how would it be different to if the client went to see an
Authoritarian Hypnotherapist for example and what do you feel are the benefits
of doing Hypnotherapy the way you do (would you even call it
Hypnotherapy?) or the disadvantages of some other ways of doing Hypnotherapy?
I remember you saying once that whenever you try to tell someone what to do
they always end up doing the opposite, so it is easier not to tell them what to
do.
Rossi: I prefer not to
call what I do - anything other than facilitating “our naturally creative
psychosocial genomic healing experiences throughout the day.” To try to do anything otherwise in an
authoritarian manner would be absurd! It
would assume that the so-called psychotherapist (councilor, guru, healer or
whatever) can really know what’s going on in a person’s mind, brain and body
with their trillions of connections on the neural and molecular level that are
in a constant state of change and transformation. Do you really think any human being can do
that? The presumption of being able to
do such an impossible task leads to the stress of the psychotherapist and the
lack of respect much of the general public has for those therapists who are so
misguided.
Jones: It strikes me that the most respectful
approach to take is an approach where the client is treated as the expert, even
if they don’t realize they are the expert, and that the ‘therapist’ is just a
guide or facilitator showing curiosity about how the client will do their own
work.
Where do you see the future of psychotherapy going,
do you see research similar to yours being absorbed into psychology courses and
being taught to psychotherapists and do you see developments of techniques or
understandings of how to use 'environmental techniques' to trigger relevant
genetic expression to treat a wide range of conditions both psychological,
psychosomatic and some physical?
Rossi: Of course!
Jones: Do you feel that this idea of ‘environmental
techniques’ to facilitate change was what Erickson was doing with some of his
task setting and 'experiential learning'? For example; making someone climb a
mountain could trigger certain psychophysiological changes relevant to the
problem. So it wasn't all a metaphor, or chore, or changing the pattern etc.,
could it sometimes have been holistic 'think this as you climb that'.
Rossi: Naturally! Erickson called his approach
“Naturalistic.” I simply traced his
naturalistic approach to its creative psychosocial genomic foundations.
Jones: If you were to recommend any one of your
books to the average layperson to read which one would it be and why?
Rossi: I have already
mentioned my 2002 book, “The
Psychobiology of Gene Expression: Neuroscience and Neurogenesis in Hypnosis and
the Healing Arts” and some of the best reasons for reading it. I believe anyone – no matter what their level
of education - can really appreciate the practical guidance for creative living
presented in Chapter 6 on “How to Create a Great Day!”
Jones: I also think that the ‘Creating New Consciousness
in Everyday Life’ Amazon Kindle eBook is an ideal introduction to your work
that is an ‘easy to read’ book. One wonderful aspect of the eBook is your use
of additional content, like videos and links to further information. There is
also a shorter version of this eBook, that doesn’t have so much additional
content that is great for those wanting their first introduction to your work
available for free from your website www.ernestrossi.com,
and also a range of papers you have made available for people to freely
download and learn from.
Psychosocial Genomics, your books and lectures
are fascinating, and I will continue to study and apply the knowledge I
continue to learn for many years to come. Do you have any closing comments you
would like to share?
Rossi: It has been
said that any truly original book or life philosophy requires at least 10 years
to find its audience. Well, Dan, I believe you have come along just in time to
make my views available to a more general audience. I sincerely thank you for the opportunity.
Jones: Thank you, for those wanting
to learn more, I can highly recommend visiting www.ernestrossi.com and reading some of
the free papers and the free eBook. For those that want to then take your
learning to a new level I would recommend reading the ‘Creating New Consciousness
in Everyday Life’ Amazon Kindle eBook, and as your knowledge increases,
progress to the books ‘Creating Consciousness’, ‘The Breakout Heuristic’ and ‘The
Psychobiology of Gene Expression’. There are also a number of audio and video
lectures, workshops, demonstrations and short courses available from www.erickson-foundation.org.